Epochal Growth | Empowering Leaders to Create Transformative Change
Welcome to Epochal Growth, the podcast dedicated to transforming the way we lead by embodying the change we seek. Embracing the belief that we are the leaders we’ve been waiting for, our mission is to empower leaders to create impactful and lasting transformations in their organizations.
Hosted by industry expert Sarah Caminiti, each episode brings together visionary leaders and change-makers to explore the profound impact of inclusive and intentional leadership. Through engaging conversations and insightful discussions, we reveal how these approaches can revolutionize businesses and drive innovation.
At Epochal Growth, we are passionate about showcasing the transformative power of intentional actions and inclusive practices. Whether you are a seasoned entrepreneur, an aspiring leader, or someone passionate about business transformation, our podcast provides valuable insights and practical advice to help you lead differently and inspire growth.
Join us on this journey to unlock the potential for transformative business success. Tune in to Epochal Growth and start being the change you seek in leadership.
Epochal Growth | Empowering Leaders to Create Transformative Change
Business as Art: Redefining Leadership and Cultivating Authenticity with Craig Crisler
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What if business could be more like art? Join me for a special birthday episode of Epochal Growth, where Craig Crisler, CEO and co-founder of SupportNinja, shares his unique journey from serial entrepreneurship to leading with humility and authenticity. Craig's personal story of recovery deeply influences his approach to leadership, bringing a fresh perspective on creating value in business through genuine relationships. Together, we explore the idea of business as an art form, where thoughtful interactions can have a lasting impact, much like a masterpiece.
Craig and I dig into the unconventional paths of leadership within the outsourcing industry, emphasizing the importance of surrounding yourself with smarter individuals to drive growth and innovation. We share insights from our career journeys, highlighting how diverse experiences contribute to a unique leadership style. As SupportNinja grew, he remained committed to redefining traditional BPO models and embracing global collaboration, which has been pivotal in enhancing business practices and outcomes. Our candid discussion sheds light on the complex dynamics of customer experience (CX) and the significance of integrating it into the core business strategy.
The episode takes a heartfelt turn as we discuss finding alignment and fulfillment in both personal and professional life. Craig draws a beautiful analogy to the Beatles' harmonious era, describing a stage where everything feels in sync. We explore the joy and contentment that come from aligning our passions and efforts with our true selves, despite challenges. Craig's analogy of a band creating great music encapsulates the essence of striving for balance and fulfillment, celebrating the peace that comes with living and working authentically.
“Change will not come if we wait for some other person, or if we wait for some other time. We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.”
- Barack Obama
Welcome to a very special episode of Epical Growth. I'm your host, sarah C, and I am so happy that you're here. Today's conversation is not only the second to last episode of season one of Epical Growth, but it's being released on my birthday, so it feels like the perfect time to reflect on growth and leadership and the power of transparency. This has been such a remarkable year. I've been spending a lot of time reflecting on this incredible year and this journey that I've been on with all of you, and I'm just so proud of this moment and I'm really excited to see where 37 takes me. Joining me today is Craig Chrysler, ceo and co-founder of Support Ninja. Craig shares his insights on creating value in business, building authentic relationships and leading with humility. Whether you're a seasoned leader or you're just starting out, there's something here for everyone. All right, let's dive in.
Craig Crisler:Awesome. Well, um, brief introduction on me, so like, um, so I'm Craig Crisler, CEO of Support Ninja. I'm one of the founders, one of the three founders, of Support Ninja. Um, I'm, you know, I would say I'm a serial kind of startup guy, like that's been my career my whole life. Uh, it's been doing startups um 12 companies, four exits. Um, you know, really seen the the, the worst and the best of it in terms of all of that stuff. So I learned a lot along the way. Um, interesting snippet. I always tell people I don't mind sharing it. I'm in recovery.
Sarah Caminiti:I've been in recovery for a long time.
Craig Crisler:Congratulations, yeah, thanks, and so that's a huge part of who I am now and who I was too. It actually is part of who I was, it's part of my story, and so it's an interesting. It informs a lot of what I do, but my focus has always been in. What I love about business is people. I just fundamentally enjoy working with people and the interaction and the way in which you create value for people and work with people. I just thoroughly enjoy that. That's the part that excites me the most the product, the service, all of those companies that I've been with and helped work on so many different types but the one consistent thing was people. That was always consistent in every single business I was in. So I just I love working with and inspiring and and um, hopefully, working for people to make them better, um and so that that just inspires me every single day.
Sarah Caminiti:Gosh, what a great career trajectory to acknowledge the thing that you love the most and then build around it.
Craig Crisler:Yeah, yeah, well it's. It's funny it cuts back to this point. So there's a point in my life, like, where I really wanted I wasn't sure because I was a musician so, like the like my first company I ever did, I started a record company. I was 15 and I'm in the Bay area, california, and and it was great, it was fantastic, it was fun, but it was just weird timing. But what was interesting about it? Like I had gotten to this point in my career where, like I didn't feel like it was, I was, I wanted to be a rock star, but I wasn't. Like I knew being a rock star is like being Michael Jordan, it's like one in a million.
Craig Crisler:It's really hard to do, and so, um and so, uh, there was a point in my career and I was talking to a mentor and this was in a company, um that I have back in Hawaii, and I was kind of a mentor and I really had this kind of like, is business art? You know? It was like this thing that I felt and I was like, is business really art? Like, is it, you know, am I creating something? Um and um, because I, I still I think I had pipe dreams of being a musician.
Craig Crisler:Still, even then, you know, um, and my mentor at the time he was like how do you know the interactions that you do with people, the way in which you look at the way businesses run and create value for people, how do you not see that as art? It's hard to not realize that that is truly art. And um, and so from that, like that was my like, oh, okay, so it is art. Like what I do in business is art and what I do with people is it's art. You know, it's just a different. It's not what you traditionally think of as art, you know.
Sarah Caminiti:Wow, I really love that concept it is. There's so much purpose behind it, because you have to be intentional when you create and you have to be thoughtful when you create, and each interaction is an opportunity to create something that lasts with people, just like art sticks with you and lasts with you and, uh, that's really beautiful. What a great thing for your mentor to to connect those dots with you.
Craig Crisler:Well, and it's that thing of where you know if, if you're a leader, or you know, or if you're, even if you're just working in a company, like people bless you with their time, right, Like, and they give you this, you know, portion of their life, right, and if and if you're not doing the best that you can to make that portion of their life meaningful in some way, then you're probably not doing the best job that you could be doing to make it work. And that's where that intention, you know, like that kind of push towards, like how do you make it? And it cuts back to I was just talking to a friend about this. We were talking about how, like you know, you'd overdate people who are rude to waitresses or waiters. You know, like it's like a common thing, right? We just don't do that, Especially for folks who work in CX, like you and I do, Like we definitely know that we're just like no Hard pass. Yeah, exactly, and we were talking about this.
Craig Crisler:And it comes to that intentionality thing, I think, where it comes down to that point of where you say, okay, well, that person who's working, whatever they're doing, you're taking their time too, right, Even the people that you're trying to create value for as a customer, and so you want it to be purposeful and you want it it to be full of intention and you want it to actually create value. And if it doesn't do that, then you know, or or you demean it in some way, then you're actually demeaning the value creation that you both could be doing together. So if you're rude to a waiter, you may not get the best food, and so wouldn't you rather work together to create a value for each other? You know, and like build, you know, a better meal for yourself?
Sarah Caminiti:Yeah, I got the chills there. That was really. That was really good. Yeah, it's so true.
Sarah Caminiti:Though it's uh and and working in CX, we do have a very different headspace than I think most people do. Um, I say to when I'm talking about anyone coming on to this podcast. I say that you're gifting me with your time because that is what you're doing and I love that you expressed that in such a similar vein. And for something as easy as going to a restaurant, and for something as easy as going to a restaurant, everybody is a customer. Everybody is a customer in some way, shape or form, and you do have an opportunity to help them be as successful as they possibly can be without that taking away from you and your experience and your journey. It is an opportunity to collaborate and just learn Uber driver or my waitress, or someone who's a coffee barista at a coffee shop, because I make it a purposeful moment to engage and connect. And gosh I, even now that I think about it. I just got a flash.
Sarah Caminiti:I went to a movie by myself and there was one other woman in the movie uh movie theater and she ended up coming over and sitting with me. We ended up talking for two hours, the movie started over again because we were still in the movie theater. Um and uh, and I ended up helping her with a mentorship program for the ymca that she works at and like, and and the ymc was in washington dc and it was just like she happened to be here for a conference, she happened to have a minute and she happened to go to this random movie in the middle of the day. And it's you rob yourself of so much opportunity to explore and to grow and just take a chance by not approaching things the way that you described, craig, the way that you do approach things, and I think that's a really important thing for people to think about when they go into the world.
Craig Crisler:Right. Well, and it's that you know on the, you know thinking about it from that CX perspective and I think that you kind of hit the nail on the head in terms of like what we think of as good CX perspective. And I think that you kind of hit the nail on the head in terms of like what we think of as good CX is, like really, it's about the co-creation of value, right Like between a customer and whoever's you know performing the CX right Like you're actually trying to co-create value with this client or customer or whatever it is. And it's that approach that you know. That's where you see, I think that's where you see excellence in CX right, like is the, what is the people who are doing it that way and thinking about it in that way and talking about how you know, is the product solving the problem? And if it's not solving the problem, how do we make it solve the problem? And brand and all that other stuff you know, and the ones that do it extremely well, are really about this collaboration of these like random instances of two people getting together to try to solve a problem, potentially specifically like on the cs side, or something like that.
Craig Crisler:But you know, like they're actually trying to co-create like a solution, you know, um, and approaching it that way and and it's funny, because then you can definitely see when that doesn't work, right, right, like, because then there's no co-creation of value, like you know.
Craig Crisler:Then you're just like, okay, we're just monotonously going to go through this and maybe you'll get value out of it or not client you know.
Craig Crisler:But then it's not shocking that people are like, oh well, you know, cs is, you know, customer experience scores are really low right now. It's like, well, probably because people are approaching it from a co-creation of value perspective, of being like how do we make this better for both of us? Because and I'm sure you know this I mean like with support agent work, I mean we get thousands of agents doing all kinds of different things and to inspire them, it is about this concept of co-creation value between us and the end user that's on the phone or on the chat or you know, whatever it is that we're doing with them and and that inspires the agent to do better work and hopefully inspires the customer to be excited about what they're you know, you know working on, you know, and. But that kind of inspiration is much better for folks who are in the CX space, versus it being just like. Okay, I'm trying to figure out how to do this script the most efficiently to make it where I can get you off the phone in a certain amount of seconds.
Sarah Caminiti:You know, like it is, it's transactional, is meaningless. You are, in doing it that way, you are telling the customer that you don't value their success enough to take the time and that all goes back to leadership of. Are you building a foundation that is rooted in value and rooted in space and pause and contemplation, and are you allowing them the space to feel safe enough to take time and care and see what happens when you take that information and you collaborate with another department and things start to change for the better there, because those are all seeds that need to be planted and watered and watered, and watered and weeded and all of these things. You have to tend to this garden, um, forever, and uh, when you do, holy cow, that's magic.
Craig Crisler:It is Well, and it's like what popped into my head was, you know I was thinking about what? Like one of my big things and this is the same for all companies that I've worked in is that, um, I work for the people who work with me, right? So, even as CEO, like I work for them, like I don't have a job unless they do theirs.
Sarah Caminiti:It's true.
Craig Crisler:And so you know, you know my job is dependent upon, you know, their success and the ability for me to be able to either be the grease and not the glue, or, you know, inspire, or you know, whatever the case may be. And, um, and it's interesting because, if you know his kind of historically, when you look at the way so much people kind of think about leaders, it's like this kind of mandate and do this other stuff, and honestly, I love being the stupidest person in the room, you know, because there's people who are way smarter than me on my team, like way smarter than me. I didn't even, I didn't even do outsourcing before support. I have no background in outsourcing, none, yeah. And so everything I learned I learned from hiring incredible people that know a lot more about this industry than I do and and looking at and seeing the ways other people are doing it and learning from them and learning from clients about ways in which we can do it better, and being that sponge to to absorb what's happening and figure it out.
Craig Crisler:Um, I think it gives me a unique perspective on the space, but I think, more importantly, like it is that that perspective to your point of being a leader, of like if you're trying to facilitate people's growth and trying to make sure you're kind of creating value, co-creating value, consistently over and over and over again. It is about not necessarily being that you know person who's like I'm the smartest, I'm going to tell you what to do, and all this other stuff. It's more about well, you probably have some smart ideas that I'm not aware of, so why don't you tell me those first? Because I don't know yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sarah Caminiti:It makes a huge difference in the types of conversation you get to have. It's really special when it actually works and people do understand why you're asking the types of questions that you're asking, and uh, and, and you have to prove yourself and your value to them over and over and over again. Um, but I got to ask cause? Outsourcing is a beast, outsourcing is uh, outsourcing is not for the faint of heart. Um, what brought you in your journey to this?
Craig Crisler:Well, yeah, so it's a funny story. Well, it's not funny. I mean, I guess it's just like most of my career has been one of like stumbling into things, like where it's like I meet people that have a great idea and then we start something. But what happened was is I was working with an AI company in Austin, texas, and I always joke when people say AI hasn't been around a long time. What happened was is I was working with an AI company in Austin, texas, and you know I always joke when people say yeah, it hasn't been around a long time.
Craig Crisler:This was nine years ago. Ai has been around a really long time. You just didn't realize it was there. That's how good it was. But I was working with an AI company. I'd helped them raise a round of funding and I was transitioning away from them after helping them raise this round. And so I was kind of away from them after helping them raise this round and so I was kind of had just recently transitioned out and uh, Connor and Cody, who are the other founders SupportNinja of , they had just started working on SupportNinja they said, hey, can you come over here and help us try to figure out this, this outsourcing thing.
Craig Crisler:And I was like I have no background in outsourcing. I've used outsourcers, I've used BPOs, like I've done that, but I never. You know, this kind of business never run. And and they're like well, that's probably what we want, just come over and let's talk. And and then from there that started a journey of me, you know, kind of visiting all kinds of outsourcing providers, making friends with, you know, the big players in the space and visiting their sites.
Craig Crisler:I will say honestly, like the more I visited the big players in the space, the more I realized what I didn't want to do versus what I did want to do. To be brutally honest, no, no fault to them. I understand the business model of what they're trying to. It's just not the model we want. Um, but um, that was the kind of start and then from there we just kind of kept growing and growing and growing and that's why, like, I came as director of customer services or something like that. You know, basically it was just kind of jack of all trades. I mean there's three of us in an apartment in the early days and he's Austin, yeah, and then um, and then from there it grew to where it is now. You know five countries and 2000,000 plus agents and all that stuff, but a lot of it bumps and bruises and just learning a lot along the way.
Craig Crisler:But the fascinating thing for me is that and this whole process has been is that I love Support Ninja primarily because it hits on that thing I was talking about before is that I just love the people part of it, the people aspect of this work. You know how and what ways we inspire people to work and be excited about work and do work for clients that aren't really they're not hired by, but that we support them to do great work for them. It just it hits all the buttons of things that I just really enjoy about business and, as such, I've been thoroughly inspired in this work. Like I just really love working in this space. Even as broken as BPO is right now, I still enjoy working in this space because I think, like there's folks who are doing great work in this space that are the change agents that I think will actually make kind of this for lack of a better term worldwide talent and the way in which we work together collaboratively to find the best people across the world like it will make us all better. Yeah.
Sarah Caminiti:Yeah, no, I do agree. I do agree. Have you found as SupportNinja has grown? Because as a BPO you have a really cool opportunity to show these companies that hire your services what good looks like and what care and time and the impact of that like what this actually looks like? But often that isn't what happens with a BPO. It is speed, it is numbers, it is all of the things that we know about BPOs. But with your mindset of the co-creation of value, how has that translated to setting up all of these teams throughout the world, to to kind of shift their focus in that regard?
Craig Crisler:Yeah, well, I will say it's. It's a bit easier for us in the sense of that the folks who come and work with us, the, you know, the Gates Foundation is one of our clients the mid journeys of the world, like, these folks who come and work with us are usually coming in from a place of not being like we're. You know, a massive publicly traded company and we just want you to be able to. You know, deal with telco. You know a massive publicly traded company and we just want you to be able to. You know, deal with telco. You know nonsense, you know that we get, or whatever. Um, so you know our.
Craig Crisler:I think we're benefited to the fact that a lot of our clients that that come to us and they they want to look at what we're doing compared to, like, maybe, a traditional BPO Um, they're a little bit more ready to have those conversations than maybe some of, like you know, major enterprise clients were, although I will say, like, I think there's a shift that's occurring in the space in relationship to this and thankfully, I think a lot of it's being spurred on by AI, but I do think there's always this kind of push pull between, you know, in that bpo space of like cost effectiveness and value right and and I think to your point, the, the, you know average handle times and first response. You know, and like all this, all these kind of measures you put in place, you know, as a bpo, is whether or not you're doing good. Um, like getting and talking to clients about, okay, what are you actually trying to accomplish? Like, what is your CX Like, what is your brand voice? What are these? You know we have these kinds of conversations with our clients and say, like, when they come in and be like, what do you want to actually accomplish? Um, and and and.
Craig Crisler:A lot of times it's interesting they don't know or it's inconsistent.
Craig Crisler:You know I always I had this funny like I was talking to somebody about this the other day where I think CX is kind of like the middle child in a family of good product and engineers is the is the first born, CX is the middle child and CS is the last, right, and so CX is kind of like the forgotten kid, like you know, maybe people don't, everyone loves him, he's great, you know like, but you know not really thought about.
Craig Crisler:We don't worry about the CX side of it, we just want to know that CS and products okay, and meanwhile CX is floating around, being, you know, not getting paid attention to, not getting loved in the same way as the other two of the youngest and the oldest are.
Craig Crisler:And it's because I think, you know, spurring our clients to have those conversations to your point is definitely like a big part of what we try to do, you know, and try to get folks to really think about it, because you know we have clients who come to us that they just they'll say they want to do this for efficiency, and then we'll say, well, is that the best for your customer? Like, do you think that that's the best value that you're creating for your customer? There are definitely certain things where efficiency is the most important thing for them, Like speed at which you do something is good and that's a part of their brand. That's great, but it definitely is, sometimes, I will say, pulling teeth, because, you know, again, cx is kind of a forgotten child, like it doesn't know the process of all of this, where it should be like an integrated part of everything that happens in the organization.
Sarah Caminiti:I think that that is the perfect way to describe CX, though, because I think we are a very difficult thing for people to wrap their head around, because the nuances and the complexity that goes into actually caring for the customer experience in a way that impacts many different places of the business makes the middleness of CX really important, because it is a bridge and it is the source of so much information.
Sarah Caminiti:But that's overwhelming. That is incredibly overwhelming if that is not your space and to think about I mean, this is me doing a hypothetical of people outside of the CX space. You started a business, you're laser focused on nailing down the UX and you've got all these engineers who are like 90% engineers in your company and you're just building and building and building and innovating, and the mindset can very easily skew to well, our product is so incredible, it'll speak for itself. And then when you start asking questions about well, what happens here and what happens here and what are you going to do when this happens and how is this flow going to build within your pipeline and how are you going to shift when your plan for the year doesn't work, because your customer, your customers, talking about all this stuff and often those conversations end and they just kind of continue on their journey. So I think that's a perfect analogy and I got to know, like, what do you hope people think about reflect on before they enter into these conversations with a BPO?
Craig Crisler:You know, I think I, I, I hope that. Well, specifically, they're coming to us for CX, like if, if they're looking at or CS, most of the time they're coming to us pants on fire, you know, like we just need help, um, but you know, one of the big things that I really hope that they they think about and kind of take some time to understand is in, in, in. They've already. Actually this is the hard part They've already done the work. Like if you've built a product or you've built a SAS, whatever it is that you're doing, like you have this thing that is driving value to a consumer, right, Whatever that consumer is business or end user and so you've built something that actually has value.
Craig Crisler:Okay, so wait, how do you want that value to be articulated in the way in which you interact with them after they have the product? Like, how do you want that value to continue to be created after they have the product? And so think about that before you get into these conversations with your strategic partner at BPO, because you know, if you're a traditional BPO, like they'll, they'll be like this stuff has to be all nailed down. They'll just tell you like, look, you have to have all your scripts. You have to tell me exactly what it is you want me to tell you. All of these things you have to say to be able to do this job right. But for us we're like, we want to make sure we're co-creating value with you. So if we're not doing that like, tell us what good looks like, tell us what you know, an excellent experience for your end user feels like have that thought, even if it's rough, before you come and talk to us because we can hone it in and make it great.
Craig Crisler:Um, but if you cause you've already done the work. You know what the what, the value of the product is. But how do you want that value to continue to be driven into that product in the next phase of that product after they have it? You know, and if you have that stuff, I think, nailed down I think most you know and you see those businesses that have that nailed down you know like it's an experience after the product's delivered that you're like, oh, okay, well, this is what this feels like. This is what good CX people will say, it's good CX. It's like, oh, yeah, this is what it feels like and it's because they're saying, okay, we're constantly driving this value chain with you, you know of like being like it's not just when the product is delivered, it's everything that occurs in that value chain.
Sarah Caminiti:Yep, yeah, no, I think that that would be. That's a good reflection point to uh, to to set yourself up, even if you're, even if you're just kind of starting to strategize of what's next for us, before you find the next solution, understand what value means to your product and how to keep it going. After they hit subscribe or after they download or whatever it is that your service is. For. Having founded and worked in so many different companies over the years, how has that all set you up for? For Support Ninja and and for staying here and and and just growing this space?
Craig Crisler:Yeah, well, I think it one is I kind of have a unique person, well, how do I put this? So I've been in. Most of the companies I've worked in have been very different. There's only kind of been one vertical I had a couple of ed tech companies, um, you know, but for the most part it's been very varied.
Craig Crisler:What I've done, um, and I, and I think, though, what, what has been helped me, set up me Support Ninja for this was kind of the selfish part of me being SupportNinja in with Connor and Cody was that I get all the stuff I love about business, which is that watching companies grow and watching people grow, watching people develop products and like, put it on the market and see if the company, see, if it see if the world likes it.
Craig Crisler:You know, and all that stuff, all of that excitement I get to be a part of, in, you know, 240 plus companies and like and and like, and that is amazing to like, see that stuff, you know, to be able to have those conversations and with these, you know, sometimes, founders, sometimes they're big and they're rolling something new out or and so it, having had that varied experience, allows me to kind of say, okay, well, if anything, I understand where they're at, but then, more importantly, I understand that it's going to be different for everybody and so how can I, how can we build something that's flexible enough and adaptable enough and drive enough value to them that they feel like we're a good partner, um, in this value creation um, and so I think that part has set me up well for that.
Craig Crisler:It says to in terms of working with Support Ninja, but also, I think too, going back to what I was talking about before in relationship to the fact of, like I don't mind being the baby in the room, like not really understanding everything and I'm just absorbing, like because I'm almost, you know, like one of the startups we were doing military tech. I'm not a military guy, I never went into the military, like you know, but we did military tech and we sold it to Raytheon and so, like, no background in that, but figured it out, you know, and like and kind of absorb whatever's there in a way and understand how and what ways can we build something that will help in this process. You know, I think positions me well. It's almost like this kind of on one side, it's like I have the ability to have experience in a lot of different verticals and then the other side of it's being like well, I'm also OK being pretty dumb and learning on the fly quickly to understand what it is that we can help with.
Sarah Caminiti:Yeah, yeah, I love that.
Sarah Caminiti:That is your approach to all of these different adventures that you've gone on.
Sarah Caminiti:I feel like you are a very kindred spirit in that regard, because I also find myself entering into companies that I know nothing about, and I almost prefer it because I'm able to and I usually do stay as removed from totally understanding the product as I can while still building and leading, because I'm able to see things from a customer perspective that you can't.
Sarah Caminiti:When you understand all the nuances and when you understand what it should be doing and can make those quick adjustments and assumptions of where you need to click or something like that, and you can connect on such a deeper level with a customer when you're able to feel the confusion because you then go through the process yourself and you're like, oh my gosh, you're right, this doesn't make any sense. This is valid. I think that we need to look into this and to have you going through all these companies and allow yourself to be curious and allow yourself to just be somebody that is new to the space. That's a vulnerable thing. To do over and over again is perfect for a BPO where you're interacting with very varied types of companies that you don't necessarily need to understand the nuances, for in order to provide them a quality support experience.
Craig Crisler:Right, well, and it's in this space too. It's interesting. I think it's intriguing because we've been, you know, like we've been in rfps and stuff like that, where they really want us to kind of stick to the rules and and and just just respond the way that they they want us to respond. But, like, I'm always like, well, do we have to? Like is, is this, like we're trying to solve a problem like and, and the problem have probably has a solution that may be simpler than we're thinking. It is like um, and and, just because it's always been done that way, doesn't really need to be done that way, like is there a different way? And so it's funny how many times with some of these rfps, like where we'll respond and they'll be like we love you, we just can't figure you out, and I'm like it's not that complicated.
Craig Crisler:Like, like you know, we're, we're we're driving towards a solution that will drive value to you, like, not necessarily the solution that you've preconceived as the best solution for this problem, um, based on, you know, procurement rules or whatever the case may be. We're trying to get to a solution that's going to drive value to you, um, but that goes back to like how old this industry is. It's just, you know, it acts like an old industry at times and and I'm I'm much more of like a startup guy where it's like, hey, let's try something new, like what's the worst that could happen? Like you know, it's better to try and fail and then learn and then do consistently something poorly. You know, I that's. You know what's the definition of insanity Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. So if it's not working now the way that you've built it, why don't we try something different? You know.
Sarah Caminiti:Yeah, that's an important mindset to share with companies that do find themselves locked into the safe route.
Sarah Caminiti:I think that's something with leadership that I have since I started building and leading teams. I wanted to do what I never really saw and I wanted to understand why I never really saw these inclusive, supportive, encouraging environments. Last, because, it's not to say, the people that I've worked with in the past didn't try, but it's so much easier when things are hard to go back to what you knew worked for other people that you saw, or at least like they survived it at the end of the day, like you've got the framework. You saw this like the last six companies that the boss turns into you know a big brother type person and starts like nitpicking everything you do and being very like gatekeepy and defensive, and it's very easy to get that instant head shift into like survival power hoarding. And I think that that translates exactly into businesses as well If you don't have somebody there constantly saying no, no, we're not doing this, no, you're not going back to that old way. We already said that old way was bullshit.
Craig Crisler:And.
Sarah Caminiti:I know things suck right now. I know things suck, but let's acknowledge that it sucks. Let's acknowledge to our team that we understand that it sucks and we trust them and we appreciate them and we value them enough to bring them into the shit with us and figure out how we're going to make it better. And I would love to know building a company with values that are. They seem like your business values connect very well to your personal core values and you found this really nice alignment. But that must be very it must be very difficult at times to keep that path visible and stay on it, because it takes it takes work yeah, it takes discipline and, like I don't even know if discipline's the right word, I actually think it comes back to transparency, like you know it.
Craig Crisler:You know it comes back to that concept of saying, like, even when you know, as a leader, let's say, you have to make a tough choice and there's something, some change that needs to occur, and and and you, and ultimately, because you're in the seat you're in, you have to make a decision and ultimately it's your name that has the sign, or whatever it is. And I think, like having that level, you know if you abide by your values and really truly believe in it, like to be transparent with everybody and tell them like this is why I made this decision, or this is why this decision was made at the group, or you know, this is why I agreed with the decision I was made. You know and and and owning it, and you know warts and all you know. Um, I remember one time this was in the early SupportNinja of you know like I made a mistake, you know like it was a mistake. It was a straight up mistake. And and I remember I went into a town hall and I told everybody I made a mistake. And, and I remember, um, there was a, uh, one of the agents in the Philippines. I saw them and they're like, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, I think you know it was a true caring, because they were like you know, they were so not used to to like somebody saying out loud that an owning, you know error, you know and and and being able to say like this is my problem and this is the mistake I made and I own it, you know, and um, but you know I said, yeah, I'm fine, it's great.
Craig Crisler:Like this is what you know honestly, like if you, if you have the same thing, you should own it too, it's okay. Like you know, we're all human. You know, like, there's nothing you know I I used to say we, I do this thing called a not so Friday update, where I do like a video thing for the team every Friday and, um, it's part of me being more transparent, just like, kind of what happened this week shout outs, bringing in guest stars. You know the whole line. And it's funny because you know I used to say all the time like you know, I can guarantee all of you one thing that I will at some point will screw up that I can guarantee. The rest of it I can't really guarantee, but I can guarantee at some point I will actually screw this thing up and um, and I think that that ownership of transparency allows the company to flourish, because then at that point hopefully people follow that model of saying like, oh yeah, it's okay, craig made a mistake, I can say it too. It's like I'll make a mistake, you know, but transparency to me it like cuts through everything.
Craig Crisler:It's one of those things, honestly, like that's one of the biggest lessons I think I learned in my recovery. You know, was that you know? In getting know, was that you know? And getting sober, was that, um, I could be and should be as transparent and real to me as I possibly can, because it's much harder to keep a lie or to hide, you know. It's so much more difficult than it's just as being me, you know, and being human and warts and all um and like.
Craig Crisler:That part, I think, was like a huge turning point for me in my recovery and especially as me as a leader in my career was, was being able to see like, oh, I can just be Craig, you know, and people will still like me, you know, as people still respect me and you know, even if I make a mistake, they'll still respect me. And, um, you, you know, and I don't need to try to pretend to be somebody. I'm not, you know, and it's funny. I think it drives my board crazy, though, because I'll be talking to somebody else. Well, you have to be overly transparent, and I was like lay it out, and they'll be like you did that out loud, why, why not? I mean, what's the worst that could happen? Someone's going to say it to somebody else. Like, you know, it just doesn't they. They love me, but at times they're like come on, craig, really no well it's.
Sarah Caminiti:It's an adjustment, like in you showing your team and and all of the people that SupportNinja with like no, I'm just going to say I'm not going to like preface it, I'm not going to like change my tone. This is just I'm having a conversation with you and I'm telling you I did not do something that I wanted to do. Like the outcome was not what I thought it was going to be. I thought it was going to be different. I made a mistake, I screwed up, you know, and we're still a company, we're still alive, we're still afloat. I'm still here, I didn't get fired. And that means that you now can say this didn't go well, I messed this up. And now you can ask, hey, why did this not go well? Where in this process did things go awry?
Sarah Caminiti:I scare many of the people that I work with because I always ask why did you do what you did, the way that you did it? And that's not in any sort of negative way. I'm not trying to like get you into a gotcha moment. I want you to actually walk me through the whole thought process so that I can figure out what moment things did not go as planned, because it's my job to make you confident enough to go on this journey and have the outcome work out the way that you hoped that it would work out, and once people start to understand oh wait a second when I do acknowledge this, like I don't, I don't get in trouble Like we actually like put a fix in place for this. It's so cool because you're able to fix things in the moment with the context and and build off of it, and so you're providing such a gift by by proving it.
Craig Crisler:I love that question. I must feel it like well, cause it definitely cuts to. It cuts through the noise, right Like there's all kinds of noise, whether it be in our head or you know. It's just like ridiculous. And and it cuts through the noise and it says like, show me what you did. It reminded me of we had an agent. It was. They were working with one of our clients and and he was just doing like two times what everyone else was doing, at a quality that was phenomenal, like, and we were like we actually thought he was like at first, we were like is he cheating, like his you know? Like like what's, what's going on? Because it's just he was far and above anybody else. And so we sit down and we're like, hey, show us what you're doing. And it turns out he like built a program to help his work.
Craig Crisler:Oh my god and for and like, and and.
Craig Crisler:So he did it and he built this program, you know, and that program, and it ended up being used by the rest of the team, like he actually ended up rolling it out to the rest of the team.
Craig Crisler:We rolled it out to the client, like all this other stuff, because it made it more efficient and better, right and and um.
Craig Crisler:But you know, we, unless we had asked the why, just be like, and of course you know the noise jumped us to the conclusion of being like this is a hack and like you know, like is he?
Craig Crisler:You know have like a keystroke helper or something like that, but like, but he had figured out a way to work around, to make to create value and um and like, even in the mistakes or the wins, like him, like in in those analysis of like, asking the why, like you talked about, like you get so much, like you can you that transparency of peeling back all the onion layers and trying to get down to the core of it. You're like, oh, okay, so this is the problem, you know, and um, and it's not you that's the problem, it's this thing. Like you know, maybe a step, you know, maybe you know a tool or whatever it is. You know it's very, you know, I would love to say it's easier to point fingers, but like it's actually a lot harder to prove that and like in, in fact I think it's I don't know it's detrimental to the team to tell all you're doing is point fingers Like cause, then it doesn't help.
Sarah Caminiti:Like well, it creates a hostile environment. For what?
Craig Crisler:For what? Yeah, like it doesn't, there's no value in it. Like there's, you know it's, there's, you know it's. Uh, you know. Point to it. I mean, I was in a meeting once and we were talking about something. I said, well, point the finger at me, I don't care. Like yeah, you know. Like it's fine. Like, if you guys want to point the finger at somebody, point at me, that's fine. But let's talk about the problem.
Sarah Caminiti:Like right, like get the pointing done, like get that cup full for you and then now, now let's just move on, because there's, there's much more to this that is productive and it's not that. Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, no, it's. I'm glad to hear that there is a, there's a company that that promotes error at scale and as a win, like and when I say error as a win, I just mean acknowledging error, because we are all trying to do our best, and the second that you start thinking, the second you start removing the people from the events or just any of it, the second you remove the people, you'll lose that piece that is, we are all just people trying to do our best. Obviously, this person is not going to create some bizarro takedown plan with this one little error that they did. There's a reason behind it. Let's figure out what the reason is.
Craig Crisler:Yeah, behaviors don't happen in a vacuum. It's built on something and it's based on something. But, yeah, and I will say, I mean it is one of those things. It's definitely an uphill battle, like at times where you're trying to get people to get comfortable with that, and it's definitely an uphill battle, like at times you know where you're trying to get people to get comfortable with that, and it's not always easy, you know, and, um, and and it's also hard.
Craig Crisler:I think people, um, humility, you know. You know one of our values is always be humble, and and and it's humility is just a tough one, right, like it's just a really tough, you know kind of position to put yourself in to be able to say that you know I'm, I'm fallible, you're fallible, we're all fallible, like, we're all going to, you know it's, you know, and we all don't think that we're the best. You know, like we just think collectively we're better. And it's hard to like, kind of I used to in the early days of this board engine with managers, would come in from traditional BPO. It's like there'd be like team leaders or site directors or you know whatever.
Craig Crisler:I would say to people the first couple of weeks I'm going to untrain you Everything that you learned in terms of hierarchical management process and yelling at agents and all that stuff. I said I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to rehab you. You're going to be better when we're done. Um, because you, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to rehab you, you're going to be better when we're done Because you'll cause I, I don't want you to be that way anymore. You know I want you to be okay with coaching, I want you to be okay with inspiring and, like you know, being a servant leader and you know all that stuff and um, but still, yeah, you know it's to your point. Earlier people, you know, they know they'll default back when the pressure's on. Why'd you do that? You don't need to do that, man. It's okay Like let's, let's try this, but let's go back to the way we believe would be better for all of us.
Sarah Caminiti:Yep, little reset, it's a little reset. Uh, I feel like I could talk to you, craig, for literally 70,000 hours, and I am so ticked off that the time is what it is. But so that I make sure I don't go over too far, as planned, I end every episode by asking our guests what era do you find yourself in, or what era are you moving into? And so, craig, I would love to know what's your era.
Craig Crisler:You know, I was thinking about this in terms of music, you know in terms of kind of music, and I was thinking about that. I I'm kind of in the era, and you know, um, yeah, I was thinking about the Beatles. Actually I was thinking about the Beatles and um, and there was that era, like right before they like kind of broke up you know, like where you know and um, but it was that the like right before they like kind of broke up, you know like where you know, and um, but it was that the last couple of albums, like let it be, and like there's like the last little kind of snippets of time there where they and I kind of feel like I'm in that era of being like I've found something that I thoroughly enjoy and that you know, and I hit, and I've hit this um stride in my life of being completely happy with the work that I'm doing. I may not love it all the time, but I'm always happy with what I'm doing, that Um, and and I've found that you know, it's like I cut the bands, like just at a home, you know where we're just like we may not be always successful, but we're just, you know, we've locked in and we're doing great and stuff like that. And with SupportN inja and this company specifically, it hits on all the things I love about business, which is people, and it just really just knocks it out of the park with that, because I get to interact and work with so many different clients and so many different people and stuff like that. So it's like we're making this like great music all the time.
Craig Crisler:You know, it's just this constant process of making great music and some sometimes it's throwaway songs, sometimes it's stuff that will make it on the record, but we're we're humming you, you know, and so it's kind of where I feel like I'm at era wise, where it's like, you know, I feel like things are, are the, the bands together and it's working well, you know, and I'm happy with that, and personally it's the same way, like the bands together and, uh, even my daughter's, like we're doing great, you know, they like me still, even though they're both in college and they want to be around me, which is a shock, um, but that's, I think that's where I'm at. I'm kind of in that, like you know, not quite to the breakup stage where I'm sick of everybody in the world, like, but I, like I still love playing music and it's like we're all together, the band's going, you know, like that's where I think man, that sounds like that is the goal.
Sarah Caminiti:That is it's you found alignment, found alignment of the things that you were supposed to do, and do them the way that you know they should be done to meet you, your needs and who you are, but also impact others around you positively, and you should be really proud of yourself, because that is work to get to this space. Because that is work to get to this space. It was work for the Beatles to figure out what worked and what didn't in order to find that hum, and some incredible things came out of it, because I think that there's a piece to it. You're able to be at peace for a moment, you're not grinding as much because you have that alignment. Um, so that's really amazing. I'm very happy for you, craig. You deserve that.
Craig Crisler:Oh, thank you I. You know, it's funny when I am, I think I am proud of myself. But it's always that thing of where, like, you know how it goes, you know you look in the mirror and you go okay, are you? Are you going to be okay today? So that part, I'm always there. But no, I really appreciate it. Thank you, sir, this has been great I really have enjoyed it.
Sarah Caminiti:Craig, this has been wonderful. I am pissed that it is the end and we've gone over two minutes. I really could keep talking to you for so long. And that wraps up today's special episode of Epochal Growth. I couldn't have asked for a better way to celebrate than by sharing Craig Crisler's thoughts on leadership and co-creating value in the workplace. We're so close to the end of season one, and this episode has definitely set the tone for an inspiring finale. Thank you all for your continued support and for making this journey so meaningful. Be sure to join us for the final episode and until then, stay curious and keep growing. I'm Sarah Caminiti. Thank you so much for listening. Have a great day.
